Halloween is fast approaching, so it feels appropriate that this week’s Reading The Great Hunt post is number thirteen. Since I was born on a Friday the 13th, I always enjoy the spooky dates, and consider thirteen a lucky number. But while it’s lucky for me, it’s less lucky for Nynaeve, who is really getting put through the wringer this week—or rather, through the ter’angreal. I originally intended to cover both chapters 23 and 24 this round, but after I finished my analysis of Nynaeve’s experience, I found that it was quite long enough (and dense enough) to be a whole post all on its own.
Chapter 23 opens with Nynaeve standing with Sheriam in the doorway of a chamber beneath the White Tower. There are other Aes Sedai present, all dressed formally in their fringed shawls, seated around a construction of large silver arches. Nynaeve complains to Sheriam that, after being left waiting all morning, suddenly everything’s in a rush.
“The hour waits on no woman,” Sheriam replied. “The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and when it wills. Patience is a virtue that must be learned, but we must all be ready for the change of an instant.”
Nynaeve tried not to glare. The most irritating thing she had yet discovered about the flame-haired Aes Sedai was that she sometimes sounded as if she were quoting sayings even when she was not.
Nynaeve asks what the construction is, and Sheriam explains that it is a ter’angreal, and like angreal and sa’angreal, it is a remnant of the Age of Legends that uses the One Power. She also explains that ter’angreal are somewhat less rare than the other two, that some work on their own and some require channelling to activate them, and that they were made to specific purposes. She tells Nynaeve that they have one ter’angreal in the tower that makes oaths binding, and explains that when Aes Sedai are raised to full sisterhood they take their final vows holding it.
“To speak no word that is not true. To make no weapon for one man to kill another. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister.”
Nynaeve observes that the oaths seems like both too much to swear, and too little, and Sheriam explains that the oaths were not always necessary, but that now they are taken to reassure the people of the world, so that fear of the Aes Sedai Power would be mitigated in the eyes of the nations of the world. She also tells Nynaeve that there is far too much history for them to play catch up now, and re-centers their focus on the ter’angreal. She tells Nynaeve that most of the ter’angreal in Aes Sedai possession aren’t even in use, because they don’t know what they are built for, and because ter’angreal are very dangerous; Aes Sedai have been burned out or killed trying to use them.
Buy the Book
The Great Hunt
The arches however, are a ter’angreal that the Aes Sedai do understand, and Sheriam explains that it will show Nynaeve her greatest fears. It has been explained to Nynaeve that she must walk through each arch in turn, but there is more that no hopeful Accepted is allowed to know until she enters the room.
Two things I will tell you now that no woman hears until she is in this room. The first is this. Once you begin, you must continue to the end. Refuse to go on, and no matter your potential, you will be very kindly put out of the Tower with enough silver to support you for a year, and you will never be allowed back.” Nynaeve opened her mouth to say she would not refuse, but Sheriam cut her off with a sharp gesture. “Listen, and speak when you know what to say. Second. To seek, to strive, is to know danger. You will know danger here. Some women have entered, and never come out. When the ter’angreal was allowed to grow quiet, they—were—not—there. And they were never seen again. If you will survive, you must be steadfast. Falter, fail, and.…” Her silence was more eloquent than any words. “This is your last chance, child. You may turn back now, right now, and I will put your name in the novice book, and you will have only one mark against you. Twice more you will be allowed to come here, and only at the third refusal will you be put out of the Tower. It is no shame to refuse. Many do. I myself could not do it, my first time here. Now you may speak.”
Nynaeve considers the question, but her resolve firms quickly when she remembers how much she wants the freedom to ask questions and learn what she wants to learn, because that is how she will find a way to make Moiraine pay. She tells Sheriam that she is ready, and they enter into the chamber. The other Aes Sedai begin a ritual discussion, and then Nynaeve is required to undress, and she folds everything neatly, hiding Lan’s ring in the folds of her clothes so that no one’s attention is drawn to it. And then she turns back to the ter’angreal arches. She feels cold, but determined that no one will see her fear.
“The first time,” Sheriam said, “is for what was. The way back will come but once. Be steadfast.”
Nynaeve hesitated. Then she stepped forward, through the arch and into the glow. It surrounded her, as if the air itself were shining, as if she were drowning in light. The light was everywhere. The light was everything.
Nynaeve finds herself standing naked in a stone maze, and is confused as to how she has come to be there or what happened to her clothes. As she wonders where she is and how she arrived, a voice in her thoughts answers “The way out will come but once.”
She starts though the maze, hoping that she will find some clothes before she finds any people, and tries to remember what she knows about the trick to solving mazes, but she can’t quite manage it. She wanders for a while, trying different patterns to her turnings, and when she grows frustrated at finding a dead end, that same voice answers her again “The way out will come but once.”
After a while of wandering and trying to find the trick of the maze, Nynaeve becomes aware of someone else, catching glimpses out of the corner of her eye or feeling a presence behind her, only to find it gone when she turns around. Frightened, she eventually begins to run from the figure, and although she has always been faster than the boys in her village, she suddenly finds her pursuer in front of her.
She skidded to a stop, the uneven paving stones rough under her feet. “I am Aginor,” he said, smiling, “and I have come for you.”
Her heart tried to leap out of her chest. One of the Forsaken. “No. No, it cannot be!”
“You are a pretty one, girl. I will enjoy you.”
Suddenly Nynaeve remembered she wore not a stitch. With a yelp and a face red only partly from anger, she darted away down the nearest crossing passage. Cackling laughter pursued her, and the sound of a shuffling run that seemed to match her best speed, and breathy promises of what he would do when he caught her, promises that curdled her stomach even only half heard.
Nynaeve searches desperate for an escape, again hearing the words “The way out will come but once. Be steadfast.” She continues to run, listening to Aginor yell, and her fear changes to anger. She feels the flowering in herself, opening up, and just as Aginor is about to catch her she turns, throwing her arm out at him, and a ball of fire leaves her hand and strikes Aginor in the chest. Aginor hollers at her.
Abruptly there were clouds in the sky, threatening billows of gray and black. Lightning leaped from the cloud, straight for Nynaeve’s heart.
It seemed to her, just for a heartbeat, as if time had suddenly slowed, as though that heartbeat took forever. She felt the flow inside her—saidar, came a distant thought—felt the answering flow in the lightning. And she altered the direction of the flow. Time leaped forward.
With a crash, the bolt shattered stone above Aginor’s head. The Forsaken’s sunken eyes widened, and he tottered back. “You cannot! It cannot be!” He leaped away as lightning struck where he had stood, stone erupting in a fountain of shards.
Grimly Nynaeve started toward him. And Aginor fled.
Nynaeve pursues him, aware of the flow of saidar, aware of it around her in the trees and stones, vaguely aware of Aginor doing something that makes the stone heave and tumble around her, makes the wind fight her, but she pushes on, determined and uncaring of her own discomfort. She redirects the stones and wind Aginor throws at her, trapping him, and the lightning she calls strikes ever closer to him. He is fighting to hold her attack at bay, but she can feel herself winning, slowly, inch by inch.
And then the doorway appears. Nynaeve is distracted enough by it that Aginor manages to crawl away, and she’s frustrated, knowing that it will take time to find him again. But she knows that if she doesn’t find him first, he will regroup and find her. But the doorway is there. For a moment she considers following him, and then she turns towards the doorway, angry, threatening whoever is responsible for her predicament with the same treatment that Aginor got, and scrambles through the arch.
The moment she is through, her memory returns, and she finds the chamber and the Aes Sedai waiting exactly as they had been when she stepped through. The Red Sister pours a chalice of water over her head, intoning that Nynaeve has been washed clean of any crimes she may have committed, and any crimes that were committed against her
Sheriam takes her hands and leads her to the next arch, telling Nynaeve that she is doing well, and that if she remembers her purpose, she will continue to do well. Nynaeve asks if the experience was as real as it seemed to be, and Sheriam admits that no one knows. The memories always feel real, and some women emerge from the experience with real injuries, although others could sustain terrible ones while inside and yet return unscathed. Sheriam believes that it is not real, but that the danger itself still is. But when Nynaeve mentions how easily she could channel, Sheriam is surprised.
“It isn’t thought necessary to give a warning, since you shouldn’t be able to remember it, but.… This ter’angreal was found during the Trolloc Wars. We have the records of its examination in the archives. The first sister to enter was warded as strongly as she could be, since no one knew what it would do. She kept her memories, and she channeled the One Power when she was threatened. And she came out with her abilities burned to nothing, unable to channel, unable even to sense the True Source. The second to go in was also warded, and she, too, was destroyed in the same way. The third went unprotected, remembered nothing once she was inside, and returned unharmed. That is one reason why we send you completely unprotected. Nynaeve, you must not channel inside the ter’angreal again. I know it is hard to remember anything, but try.”
Nynaeve promises not to channel, and is then taken up to the second arch. This second time, Sheriam intones, is for what is.
Nynaeve steps through, and is surprised to see the brown dress she is wearing, although she doesn’t know why it should be surprising. She is Emond’s Field, and happy to be there, until she starts to notice how worn and neglected the village looks. After being rudely greeted and then dismissed by Cenn Buie, Nynaeve goes into the inn, looking for Bran al’Vere, but finding his wife, Marin instead. Merin starts up, asking if Nynaeve has brought Egwene home. Nynaeve struggles to remember where Egwene is, but answers that she hasn’t.
Merin tells her that Bran is dead, that Cenn Buie is mayor now, and Malena, the new Wisdom, must not know that Nynaeve has come back. She explains how the new Wisdom showed up just when they needed help, and that children kept getting sick, requiring that Melena stay, despite the fact that she is a horrible bully and everyone is afraid of her. She browbeats people into doing what she wants, and even beats them with a stick. She knocked Alsbet Luhhan down, and when Bran and Haral Luhhan told her to leave, they both got sick and died. Marin tells Nynaeve that Malena mixed medicine for them, and that Marin saw her put grey fennel in it.
Horrified, Nynaeve asks how Marin could know that Malena poisoned the men and not go to the women’s Circle about it, and Marin answers that Malena turns on those who question her, accusing them of not walking in the Light and drawing the Dragon’s Fang on their doors. And then sometimes their children get sick and die. Nynaeve insists that she has to do something, ignoring the voice whispering “The way back will come but once” as she urges Marin to stand up and tell the Circle that Malena is responsible for so many children getting sick. Marin agrees, as long as Nynaeve will come with her and be their Wisdom again.
They go out, but haven’t gotten far when they spot the woman Marin identifies as Malena.
Something made Nynaeve look over her shoulder. Behind her stood a silver arch, reaching from house to house, glowing whitely. The way back will come but once. Be steadfast.
Marin gave a soft scream. “She’s seen us. Light help us, she’s coming this way!”
Malena stalks toward them, and Marin begs Nynaeve to come away, to run and hide, because she hates Nynaeve and anyone who will speak of her or aid her. Her terror is palpable as Nynaeve struggles to remember that this is not real, that the way out will only come once. But theses are her people, and they need her. With a tremendous effort, she tears herself away, running toward the arch as Marin screams for help behind her. She passes through it.
Staring, Nynaeve staggered out of the arch, barely aware of the chamber or the Aes Sedai. Marin’s last cry still rang in her ears. She did not flinch when cold water was suddenly poured over her head.
“You are washed clean of false pride. You are washed clean of false ambition. You come to us washed clean, in heart and soul.” As the Red Aes Sedai stepped back, Sheriam came to take Nynaeve’s arm.
Nynaeve gave a start, then realized who it was. She seized the collar of Sheriam’s dress in both hands. “Tell me it was not real. Tell me!”
“Bad?” Sheriam pried her hands loose as if she were used to this reaction. “It is always worse, and the third is the worst of all.”
Nynaeve tells her that she left her people to their doom in order to come back, and Sheriam explains that there will always be a reason not to come back, that the ter’angreal makes traps for you out of your own mind. It is for this reason that it is used as a test, the Aes Sedai ask much of its members, and they must want to be Aes Sedai more than they want anything else. Nynaeve admits that she is afraid of what is to come, and Sheriam tells her that this is good, that anyone seeking to channel the One Power should do so with a healthy feeling of fear and awe. She mentions that Nynaeve doesn’t have to go through the third arch, but Nynaeve knows that she will be put out of the Tower if she doesn’t complete the test, and chooses to continue.
“The third time,” Sheriam intoned formally, “is for what will be. The way back will come but once. Be steadfast.”
Nynaeve threw herself at the arch in a run.
Nynaeve is running through a field of wildflowers and butterflies, her horse close at hand, wearing a fine dress, with jewels in her hair, and overlooking the kingdom of Malkier, the Seven Towers standing tall and the city banners flying. Lan rides up to her, dismounts to gather her up in his arms and kiss her, her feet dangling as he lifts her to his height. But she is struck and surprised by the action, and demands that he put her down. Although her memory is fractured, difficult to pin down, she exclaims that she cannot do this, asks for anything but this. She tells Lan that she cannot marry him, which makes him laugh and tell her that saying they are not married might upset their children.
Desperately, Nynaeve searches for the arch, saying that she must leave at once. Lan, not understanding, thinks that she means Emond’s Field and offers to arrange an escort. But Nyenave says she must go alone, repeating that the Queen of the Malkieri couldn’t possibly go to Andor without an escort. His words start to reach Nynaeve despite her best efforts, and she turns to him, repeating the word Queen, asking about their babies.
“Very well,” he said slowly. “As my wife, how could you not be Queen? We are Malkieri here, not southlanders. You were crowned in the Seven Towers at the same time we exchanged rings.” Unconsciously he moved his left hand; a plain gold band encircled his forefinger. She glanced at her own hand, at the ring she knew would be there; she clasped her other hand over it, but whether to deny its presence by hiding it or to hold it, she could not have said. “Do you remember, now?” he went on. He stretched out a hand as if to brush her cheek, and she went back another six steps. He sighed. “As you wish, my love. We have three children, though only one can properly be called a baby. Maric is almost to your shoulder and can’t decide if he likes horses or books better. Elnore has already begun practicing how to turn boys’ heads, when she is not pestering Sharina about when she’ll be old enough to go to the White Tower.”
“Elnore was my mother’s name,” she said softly.
“So you said when you chose it. Nynaeve—”
Nynaeve catches herself, repeating again that she must go, and she sees the arch waiting for her in the trees. Lan asks what he can do to help her, admitting that he is not the best of husbands, and Nynaeve tells him that he is the very best. She finds herself remembering their life together, the memories growing stronger the more she hesitates. Lan tells her that he feels like he is losing her, and touches her cheek. Nynaeve, her eyes fluttering closed under the touch, tells him that she wishes she could stay, but when she opens them again the archway is gone. She pulls away, and as Lan asks her what is wrong, tells him that it is not real.
“Not real? Before I met you, I thought nothing except the sword was real. Look around you, Nynaeve. It is real. Whatever you want to be real, we can make real together, you and I.”
Wonderingly, she did look around. The meadow was still there. The Seven Towers still stood over the Thousand Lakes. The arch was gone, but nothing else had changed.
But Nynaeve remembers that Egwene is still in the White Tower, that Rand can channel, that Mat and Perrin may never regain anything of their own lives. And she remembers that Moiraine, responsible for it all, still walks free. With an effort she begins to form the flower in her mind, giving it cruel thorns, wishing for them to pierce her flesh as she opens herself to saidar. Doing her best to ignore Lan’s pleas and declaration of love, to ignore the memory of Sheriam’s warning about using the power, Nynaeve manages to draw the archway back into being, flinging herself though it as Lan begs her not to leave him.
She falls through the arch, sobbing and shouting at Sheriam how much she hates the Aes Sedai. Sheriam remarks easily that almost every woman says the same thing, that it is not easy to be forced to face one’s fears, but she is shocked to find a long thorn dug into each of Nynaeve’s palms. She pulls them out and heals Nynaeve’s hands, surprised anew when, despite the healing, there are two small scars left behind.
Nynaeve can see there are other Aes Sedai in the chamber now, including the Amyrlin. Nynaeve remembers how she was instructed and steps forward to kneel before the Amyrlin, who pours the last chalice of water over her head.
“You are washed clean of Nynaeve al’Maera from Emond’s Field. You are washed clean of all ties that bind you to the world. You come to us washed clean, in heart and soul. You are Nynaeve al’Maera, Accepted of the White Tower.” Handing the chalice to one of the sisters, the Amyrlin drew Nynaeve to her feet. “You are sealed to us, now.”
The Amyrlin’s eyes seemed to hold a dark glow. Nynaeve’s shiver had nothing to do with being naked and wet.
Knowing about the oaths that the Aes Sedai swear and how the has thrown a different light on so many things I thought I understood about their order and their function in the world. Since the moment Moiraine arrived in Emond’s Field back in The Eye of the World, pretty much everyone who learned of her real identity has, with sidelong looks and suspicious tones, remarked about how untrustworthy Aes Sedai are, how they will never bluntly lie to your face, but that they will also never say what they really mean, twisting their words to manipulate you into doing and thinking what they want you to do and think. It is one of the first things Rand thinks about when he considers whether or not to accept Moiraine’s help in healing Tam after the Trolloc attack on Emond’s Field—the fact that Aes Sedai are considered to be so untrustworthy.
Buy the Book
The Ruin of Kings
I never expected such a straightforward reason as to why the Aes Sedai don’t lie, and while the oath is probably quite helpful when dealing with rulers and nations and those in power, those who have the education and understanding to know about the oaths, for everyday people this actually seems to have spiraled into a suspicion of trickery and deceit. Not that there aren’t plenty of other reasons to see the Aes Sedai in that way, including the fact that they really do manipulate people and events all the time, and of course that since the Breaking the saidar side of the One Power has come under suspicion for its relation to the tainted saidin. But I wonder if this binding oath hasn’t had the effect of further isolating the Aes Sedai from common people who aren’t able to know the intricacies of how their Power and the ter’angreal work. Which is a shame, since the oath is specifically designed to reassure non-channelers.
Then again, Nynaeve notes how the oath is both “too much and too little” and I think that it is also designed with that same Aes Sedai “trickery”; it contains just enough restrictions to reassure and yet limits the Aes Sedai as littl eas possible. I also have a lot of questions about how this oath pertains to members of the Black Ajah—right now they are still a rumor (except for Moiraine, Adeleas and Vandene figuring out their existence in the last chapter) but once they are known to be real, it seems like ferreting them out has to end up being more complicated than just asking each Aes Sedai to answer “yes” or “no” to the question “Are you part of the Black Ajah?” Perhaps the Dark One has provided them the ability to break the ter’angreal oaths? I was pretty suspicious of Verin’s claim that Moiraine sent her to follow Ingtar and Rand, but she doesn’t imply that Moiraine sent her, she straight-up says it, so either that was truth, or Verin can lie somehow. Maybe she got out of swearing the oath? Or maybe she found a way to break it. Or maybe the truth is much more complicated than I can guess right now and Moiraine did send her.
At least Nynaeve won’t have much of a problem with that part of the oath, since she would much prefer to speak her mind, even when she really shouldn’t. Not exactly a person who goes for the white lies to spare someone’s feelings, or even the clever lies to protect herself. I’m just saying, if your main motivation in life is to become powerful and get revenge on another powerful person, maybe don’t make how much you want to get at her so painfully obvious, Nynaeve.
One of the things I found very interesting about the three parts of the trail was how viewing them in concert gave me a different interpretation than considering them individually. So, for example, the first arch seemed fairly basic to me. Nynaeve passes through and is confronted with an experience that rehashes fears from her past; fear and frustration with not having all the answers, fear of sexual assault, and fear of Aginor, specifically, having encountered him in the Greenman’s grove at the end of The Eye of the World. But she faced her fear of him and overcame it; once she had done so, the way out appeared to her. However, having seen the traps laid by the ter’angreal in the second and third trip through the arches, I realized that Nynaeve facing her primal fears is only one part of the arches’ test, and not really the most important part. The real test in the first ordeal is in Nynaeve facing her desire for revenge. She doesn’t just protect herself from Aginor’s attack, she attacks him back, traps him, and wants to punish him. When he escapes she’s frustrated, and although the concern that he will come for her again sounds like a logical one, she has already found her way out. The arch is there, it will take her to safety away from him, and still she is tempted to try to find Aginor in the hope that the arch will wait for her. And even when she does make the choice to leave, it is with anger, and that need for revenge is turned upon a new source— whoever is responsible for her being in that place.
I’ve said it before, and I will continue to say it, Nyenave’s anger is definitely a trap for her, and while her motivations of revenge might sustain her in the short term, they will hamper her eventually, distract her from what’s really important. I understand why she’s angry at Moiraine but in the light of reason, she has to know that Moiraine didn’t cause Rand to be a channeler, or Egwene for that matter. Even if Nynaeve still believes that the Trollocs wouldn’t have come if Moiraine hadn’t first, she’s deluding herself in placing all the blame into this one symbolic scapegoat. And she’s doing that because she is scared of the larger truth, so I guess I shouldn’t really be making the distinction about the test after all. For Nynaeve, her anger is her expression of fear, and so making her face one is making her face the other.
I wonder if the fact that she can remember to channel inside the arches has something to do the test as well, given how scared she is to connect with her Power. Confronting that fear seems like an important test, and maybe it was necessary for the ter’angreal to provide her the ability to use it safely.
The second test is the most easy to understand, since Nynaeve has been very open both to others and in her own narration about her identity as Wisdom of Emond’s Field, and her intense feeling of duty to those people. She feels that she has had to choose whether to abandon Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Egwene or to abandon the rest of the village. She has had to accept that she is unable to fulfill her duty as she sees it to be—to bring the four of them back home—and has furthermore had to accept the ways in which being a natural channeler has separated her from that identity as Wisdom in its own right. And I wonder if that isn’t really what she’s angry at Moiraine over. Moiraine was no more than the deliverer of information, but by telling Nynaeve of her abilities, she started a process in which Nynaeve had to make some very hard decisions. Unlike Egwene, Nynaeve didn’t need to be trained at the White Tower to save her own life. Unlike Rand, Perrin, and Mat, she wasn’t being chased by the Dark One for some terrifyingly unknowable reason, becoming a danger to friends and strangers alike. Nynaeve could have gone home, been Wisdom, the only use of her power listening to the wind and the occasionally healing that she herself didn’t quite understand. But she would have known, always, what else she was and what other worlds she had turned her back on. And in that way, the shattering Nynaeve’s happy ignorance is the only thing that Moiraine actually did to her.
So Nynaeve is forced, in the second arch, to face her biggest fears of the moment; that she has abandoned her duty to her village and that they are suffering because of it. Because guilt can often be an expression of fear, too, and Nynaeve is forced to confront that guilt/fear by seeing the imagined disasters turned up to eleven and then having to choose to turn away when things were at their very worst and people she cared for were begging for her help. The ritualized cleansing that followed spoke of her being washed clean of false pride and ambition, but I think the last one that the Amyrlin gives is more appropriate to Nynaeve’s second ordeal; that she is washed clean of being Nynaeve of the Emond’s Field.
And then the third test. I wasn’t surprised to see this situation at all. Lan’s rejection is a huge source of pain for Nynaeve, and the trap this time is not her own anger or guilt but rather her own desires. Her own hope, maybe. She’s not great with hope and optimism, as she showed in her completely inability to address Lan’s reasons besides “I embarrassed myself, I get it, you don’t love me,” which is so clearly the opposite of what Lan said. Thus, the arch provides her with the ability to have what she really wants—tempts her with happiness and freedom rather than guilt or fear or anger—and in doing so forces her to make the choice to turn away. Because in the real world, it was Lan’s choice, and Nynaeve ultimately had no say. The arche require her to face making the choice for herself, to turn away from her dream of happiness.
What alarmed me the most about Nynaeve’s dream life with Lan is the fact that the third arch is supposed to show what is to come. Now, I imagine it’s not actually showing the real future, just as I don’t think it showed what is actually going on in Emond’s field. Like the first ordeal, it is an amalgamation of truth from Nynaeve’s life mixed with her hopes and fears and foibles. But I can’t help wondering if Nynaeve might get some part of a future with Lan, only to have to make a choice to turn away because of another commitment to the Aes Sedai. Maybe they will have another conversation about their feelings for each other, only to have Nynaeve be the one to say she can’t commit because of her duty to something or someone else. That would gut-wrenching.
I really don’t know what to think about Nynaeve’s use of channeling after it was said to be dangerous, besides my observation that maybe it is necessary for her particular trial. Since even the Aes Sedai using the ter’angreal know little about its use, it may be that the wielding of the Power by the first two Aes Sedai testers wasn’t actually what burned them out, but something to do with the wards, or how they were using the Power, or why they were using it. Maybe because Nynaeve is fully part of the experience, so is her wielding; in other words, she is using the Power in conjunction with the ter’angreal rather than against it. That would make more sense of the fact that she was able to recall the arch, as well. It’s also possible, although probably pretty unlikely, that the ter’angreal is simulating the use of the power just as it simulates everything else in the experience.
Although that seems especially unlikely given that Nynaeve emerged with those thorns in her palms, thorns she apparently… made? Somehow? And the fact that they didn’t heal the way Sheriam expected is really curious, given that we know other women have been injured in the arches and were clearly able to be healed perfectly. And just as the healing isn’t as simple as it’s supposed to be, neither is is the washing clean; you can say Nynaeve al’Maera has been freed from the ties that bind her to the world and that she belongs to the White Tower now, but no ritual and no ter’angreal is going to make that true unless Nynaeve decides that it is.
She must be really tired of hearing “the wheel weaves as the wheel wills” by now. I would be, I know, because nothing is more annoying, when you are feeling powerless, than to be reminded of how powerless you really are. I wonder how different Aes Sedai engage with the idea of the Pattern and Fate; the mantra seems to be used as a comfort by Moiraine, a reminder that there is a greater hand in this work than her own, but it can also feel, I imagine, like a chastisement or a restriction. It’s always interesting how different people engage with the idea of fate or a higher power which makes choices that are beyond an individual human’s control or even understanding. I’ve engaged before with the question between free will and immutable destiny in the world of The Wheel of Time, and it seems like the more we learn the more questions there are to ask. But knowing how Nynaeve is, she definitely doesn’t seem like the sort to ever be comfortable with anything being outside of her control, ever. And although I bet she grows and adapts over time, I also don’t see her ever really coming over to a place of great serenity and connection with a spiritual self in harmony with the Wheel and its Pattern. But I bet she can’t wait to learn how to heal with the Power.
Next week we have a very exciting set of chapters, and we get a lot of new faces back and one of my early predictions comes true. Please, hold your applause. See you down in the comments friends!
Sylas K Barrett can always appreciate a character whose strengths and weaknesses are the exact same traits. But he would like to see Nynaeve put her logical brain to use a little more. All those questions and learning she’s about to embark on will probably be good for her.
Lovely analysis Sylas, as always. The more we experience the world in the minds of the characters, the more a part of us they become… Up until it is revealed that she could channel, I really did not like her character… then slowly we get an unsteady warming to her… And she still has ups and downs as the narrative continues… But She’s one special character…
Oh my goodness. I was grinning like an idiot through this whole thing. You have REALLY nailed it when it comes to your analysis of Nyneave’s character (I actually never thought about the first ‘fear’ test in such a way – it’s been so long since I’ve read it – and how it relates to her own anger/fear over her situation and her needing to learn to rise above her need for revenge). Honestly, she’s one of my favorite characters ever in part because she has such intense fear/guilt/loyalty that all mix together, and that does often manifest in anger which can make her…prickly.
Regarding the Oaths, Verin, etc – well, this whole chapter fueled speculation for decades ;) One thing I’ll point out is how amusing it is to me that Verin’s name evokes Veritas – truth :)
Now that you’ve learned about *angreal, think back a few chapters to what may have been so frightening to Selene.
Love reading chapters about Nynaeve, one of my favorite characters of all time in any work. If more of us were like her, flaws and all, it’d be a better planet…
This the first instance of Jordan’s nudity kick, right?
Reading your speculations I can’t help but think that while Jordan does love his red herrings, as Freud allegedly said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
It really should have occurred to me to look forward to Sylas’ analysis of this scene. It’s the sort of thing were I can tell the author is trying something more complex but I usually don’t pay enough attention to figure out.
Sylas, I’d like you to remember the things that Sheriam said at the beginning of this chapter for the future. One of the things she said has, due to its inclusion being in this specific chapter instead of in another one, led me to a theory about this whole ordeal. Well, it’s more than a theory, really; I am all but convinced it is indeed true, because it fits so much better with literally everything than what one might call the “standard interpretation”.
I will return to this the last time we visit this room //(this is, of course, also the next time)//. But for now, let’s just say that I have good reason to believe that you got something you stated in a particular sentence of this post completely wrong.
For those already wanting to know which sentence I’m talking about, here it is whited out:
And I’m talking about //BOTH parts of that sentence, there.// What clued me into this is Sheriam //specifically mentioning that “the ways we use [the ter’angreal we use] may be nothing like the purposes the makers intended”.// Why would Robert Jordan have put this in this chapter, of all places, if he hadn’t meant for us to question some things?
@5 – This the first instance of Jordan’s nudity kick, right?
Bathing in Shienar
One point you didn’t address that I wish you would, do you think this is a good test for potential Aes Sedai?
Considering that most of her memory is gone, it seems like the way to pass the test is to trust that external whispering voice over your own eyes, ears, and internal instincts. Perhaps I’m overstating it, but this particular test (compared to some to come) bothers me.
As to Nyneve’s channeling in the third test, I believe it was her raw power with saidir that forced the arch to reform and her guilt/pain/anger along with that power to drive those blackthorns into her hands. Good job as always
@deadhedge (#11)
//Considering my headcanon that the Arches ter’angreal is related to Tel’Aran’Rhiod, and given how in Lord of Chaos Egwene re-discovers Travelling by figuring out how to make a portal to T’A’R so she can enter it in the flesh, I always figured Nyneave accidentally made a Portal Weave from the “Arches World” back to the room underneath the Tower. This is even related to what you said, as being as untrained as she is, she’d have to be as strong in the Power as she is to even be able to create such a complex Weave.//
Also, minor grammar correction: it’s “saidar” (or, better yet, “saidar”). Nor “saidir”.
@10 tbgh
I agree with you on this one. If I’m going to be evaluated I want it to be with all my faculties intact. Which doesn’t really take away from the drama and narrative of the scene of course… but in-world, it does make you wonder about some of the women who passed, and by implication some of the women who failed.
S
@@@@@ 12 jadis666 Oops on the spelling. //Never thought of that, but either way it amounts to the same thing since she came out of the ter’angreal instead of a random gate/portal in the middle of the room//
Note: message edited by moderator to white out spoiler.
Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister.
It occurred to me now during this reread that it leaves out friends who are not Warders or Aes Sedai. What if a Sister sees an innocent person, say a child, or a village woman or whoever in mortal danger, being attacked by somebody who is neither Shadowspawn nor a Darkfriend, but just a cruel, bad person? During a robbery gone wrong, for example? Do all those attackers then count as Darkfriends, under the presumption that they do not walk in the Light? Or does the Sister then use a Weave in a manner, say, like Siuan used Air to bind Nynaeve and Egwene, making the attacker unable to move and giving the victim to get away? Would that usage of the Power then not count as Weapon, but as merely hindrance or something?
I am quite sure this question has probably been already discussed thoroughly somewhere, but I cannot recall seeing it or if I have, I do not remember (it has also been awhile since I last read the series).
Other than that, I am continuously amazed by Sylas’s ability to catch SO many things I miss even on a read that is not my first. Great article, as always :)
One thing that struck me walking through this again is that Nynaeve leaves Lan in the third test because her duty requires her to. That is reasoning Lan would very much understand, and a sign that they really are right for each other. Nynaeve will never tell Lan that if he loves her he wouldn’t ride off into danger to do his duty, or vice versa (one of my least favorite tropes).
@15 I think weapon means Aes Sedai can’t put a fireball through a footpad’s head. Tying them up Is perfectly allowed.
Fantastic analysis, Sylas!
Your examination of each test is great!
Aes Sedai are humans with human flaws and failings, as they should be. But this chapter reminds me how much emotional fortitude each and every one of them must have had, to even pass through the fan-dubbed Acceptatron. I’ve wondered what other Aes Sedai experienced in there, especially some of the more interesting ones. ///Cadsuane, Verin, Siuan, Elaida etc.///
Nynaeve’s experience brought to my mind three types of dream that are familiar to me. The basic nightmare of being chased by something or someone terrifying (giant centipedes, terrorists, Ramsay Bolton…), though I seldom turn and fight the threat. The anxiety dream of returning to a former workplace or home and discovering it’s gone to ruin without me. And the beautiful, impossible fantasy-fulfillment that leaves me angry to wake.
I was surprised at first that Aginor was the scary thing chasing Nynaeve, since they had no particular connection. But he’s probable the most horrific-looking human she’s ever seen. And he attacked Lan. And as a Forsaken, he was a childhood bogeyman to her (and the other Two Rivers people). When he channeled, as a key part of her test, it made more sense. The only other evil male channeler (or definitely-evil channeler of any gender) she’s encountered was Balthamel, the one who actually hurt her for “the pleasures of the flesh,” but he couldn’t talk when she met him and thus couldn’t tell her what he intends to do to her here.
Hi Sylas,
I enjoyed your speculation about the oaths and the oath rod, particularly as it pertains to the Black Ajah. All will be revealed in (quite a lot of) time.
I will add that this series made me think about the distinction between truth and honesty more than anything else I had ever seen before it. The Aes Sedai find all sorts of ways to be dishonest without ever saying anything that isn’t true. Lies by omission, misdirection, answering questions with questions. Moiraine did just that previously in this book. Asked directly if she had knowledge of anything that might indicate the Dragon had been reborn, she deflects by answering with a question. “If I did, do you think I would be here?” She then goes on to say “The Amyrlin knows as much as I do, that I swear.” Every word true. None of it provides an honest answer to the question.
On the subject of truth and honesty, remember that Verin did indeed state directly that Moiraine sent her after the boys. You’ll have more fuel for speculation on that statement in a few chapters.
@19, Emotional fortitude or in some cases I fear sociopathic tendencies.
Re the First Oath: No one ever trusts a person who starts a statement with, “trust me.” Swearing to never tell a lie is a great way to get everyone to doubt whatever comes out your mouth.
Now if Aes Sedai made a promise not to use and manipulate people to their own ends…
@15
//I think it’s pointed out, that in those situations, you see the Aes Sedai place themselves in danger, making them able to use the One Power as a force.//
@15 Celebrinnen re: “Use the Power as a weapon.” is always an interesting thing to think about, isn’t it? Because really, <benkenobivoice> from a certain point of view, </benkenobivoice> ANY use of the One Power that achieves victory over someone else could be considered using it as a weapon, no?
Just as someone who seduces people to gain power over them is said to be using sex as a weapon. Or how famous orators have used words and speeches as weapons.
So it’s all up to interpretation, I suppose, much like the “Truth” Oath. If I, as an Aes Sedai, do not consider tying someone up with Air to be using it as a weapon, then the Oaths will let me do it. I often wondered if a smart debater couldn’t really screw up an Aes Sedai by making her question her Oaths in this way.
When Moiraine uses the Mirror of Mists to appear to grow as big as a house and scare away Whitecloaks in tEoTW, isn’t that using the OP as a weapon? What if one of the horses had thrown a WC and broken his neck? Or if one of them had a heart condition and died of fright? What would that have done to Moiraine?
As Nynaeve said – “Too much but at the same time not enough.”
That ties back the the original issue with the Oaths being “too much and too little”.
The oath to tell the truth does not keep them from deflecting and misleading. It also does not make them into Magic 8 Balls that can accurately predict the future. They just cannot knowingly lie.
The prohibition from making weapons would not prevent an “safe” object they made from being used as one. A Sister could presumably make a wood ax or kitchen knife, so long as they did not know it was going to be used for violence.
The prohibition on use of power as a weapon depends on each Sister’s personal interpretation of “as a weapon” and “Darkfriend and Shadowspawn” and “defending your own life…”. I assume that a Sister could be startled from sleep, believe that she was being attacked, and light someone on fire. It’s not like she has to go to court and prove it was self-defense before she does it.
Bending these rules all depends on how well each Sister can convince herself that she is actually following them.
Thanks to everybody for the answers! I suppose it really does come down to interpretation regarding what exactly counts as mortal danger and a weapon as such and using it and what does not. And re: edlicious @24, the white-outed comment – now that you mention it, I …. now kind of even remember it happening in one of the (much) later books, wasn’t there? //or at least some discussion whether the Aes Sedai already felt herself threatened enough to act or not//
Also wished to point out how sorry I am once again that we cannot put likes to these comments. Because Ramsay Bolton IS terrifying …
@27 – yes, in Book 11.
One detail, which I think is first mentioned in this chapter, is related to the recent discussion about what effect the One Power has on channelers: When holding saidar, Nynaeve can directly perceive molecules! Channelers effectively get additional senses that allow them to perceive the world in much greater detail. I bet that contributes to them feeling more alive while holding the Power.
On another note, how do they know that the way back will come but once? Have there been many people who have entered the ter’angreal saying “I will return the second time the arch appears”, and then never been seen again?
Given that they don’t talk much about what happens in the ter’angreal, there could be many accepted and sisters in the White Tower who have had the same experience as Nynaeve, that the arch has disappeared and reappeared, each of them thinking that her case is unique. “I don’t deserve to be here” they all think. “I failed the test when I didn’t go through quickly enough. I must never mention that I was given a second chance to return, lest I be expelled from the Tower.”
A random observation about the oaths: A few chapters ago the Amyrlin made a sword out of air. That’s undeniably a weapon. But she didn’t make it for a man, so the second oath didn’t prevent that. And she didn’t actually use it against anyone, so the third oath didn’t come into play.
@5, @9:
I hate to break it to you, but public unisex bath houses have existed in various cultures for thousands of years, and going through a ritual ceremony that includes bathing, or baptism of some sort, fully nude is a common trope amongst secret societies, both in fiction and in RL. It ain’t some sort of RJ fetish.
@27, 28 – actually it happens earlier than Book 11, at the end of Lord of Chaos at // Dumai’s Wells.//
I don’t think I need to white that out – it shouldn’t be a spoiler to name a place.
*edit* Whited out due to @33 Rob feeling it should be – though I still don’t think it needs to be.
@23:
Naw. No one who becomes Aes Sedai lacks the hubris to assume every action they take is for the “good of the world.” And as long as they believe that, than as far as the Oath rod is concerned, it wouldn’t be for “their own ends.”
@31 – you are correct! Good catch. I for one would prefer that you white out the place name – I don’t want Sylas to localize a future event to any place name before it happens.
///One of the funniest things about not knowing what purpose a ter’angrel is used for IS the Oath Rod. It was intended for criminals. Roflmao.///
Note: message edited by moderator. Please make sure to white out spoilers!
@34. Needs to be whited out!
@27: You can “Favorite” a comment. :-)
Excellent character analysis, as always! Great questions to ask as well.
@32, Good point.
@27 and 36, what does it say about me that Ramsay Snow inspires not so much fear but homicidal rage as in a desire to rip his throat out with my bare hands? His Dad on the other hand makes me want to be very quiet and unnoticed.
@19
And if they can’t handle the Acceptatron //they sure as hell wouldn’t survive the oval ring testing for Aes Sedai!//
Setting aside the question of whether it’s wise to be using these particular tests for Aes Sedai and hopefuls, what they accomplish is to force the individual to deny her fears, deny her past life, abjure her potential future //and later do all of the above many times while channeling under extreme duress/torture//. I think the cumulative result has been //to create a truly isolated ivory tower full of people more dedicated to themselves and the advancement of the Tower’s interests than being Servants of anyone… let alone Servants of All.//
@30 – Umm the female characters in WoT get naked ALL THE TIME. I most certainly think it was something of a fetish for RJ. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
@Celebrinnin (#15)
I’m not sure in how far this counts as a Spoiler, so I’ll white it out just in case.
//My answer would be that the situation you described would be one where the Aes Sedai couldn’t help, regardless of how much she might want to. While I agree that this is a major flaw in the oath, you have to remember that the Aes Sedai, as a group, have always cared far more about those within their own order than for what we might call “the common man (and woman, and child)”. This is just the first real indication of that.//
Well… On second thought, I suppose the “You are washed clean of Nyneave Al’maeren of Emond’s Field [..] You are now sealed to us.” is also a very big indication of that.
@fernandan (#40)
Yes, that is exactly what the tests accomplish. And given by the ritualistic speak involved, I am thoroughly convinced that this result is exactly the one the Aes Sedai want to achieve. Whether achieving said result is actually a good idea in practice, or if the Aes Sedai (as a group, that is; individual Aes Sedai might be better — or, for that matter, worse — than their organization) just simply have no idea what is best for themselves and for the world //(as, as you may be aware, is almost always the case regardless of the topic…)//…. well, that is another question altogether, isn’t it?
Let’s have a vote, guys: should what Austin wrote in (#41) be considered Spoilerific, or is it OK to leave it in plain, black text? I myself am not at all sure which side I’m falling on myself, which is why I’m asking the rest of the contributors here.
@41, @44:
LOL. Well, I guess it IS technically a spoiler. Just not one that matters in the slightest.
@41 – So do the men, just not ritualistically that we know of. But then again, we haven’t been privy to Whitecloak initiation rites, and the // Black Tower // hasn’t been around long enough to develop those kinds of rites. And there aren’t any other groups of men in Randland. But the Shienaran bath houses, and the // Aiel Sweat Tents // are functionally the same thing, and everybody gets naked. So, I’m just not seeing the fuss. I hope they don’t go that route with the TV show, since I want my tweens to watch it, but I don’t get the fuss over it regarding the books. They are real, historical things that are carried over into his societies to make them seem both foreign and real.
Edit: I’m trying to remember if Couladin’s brother had to go in to Rheudan naked or not? Anyone remember?
As I recall //men went in unarmed without food or water but clothed. But their ordeal was different from that of the Wise Woman aspirants involving a completely different ‘Terangel //
@45 – //No, because I remember he pulled up his veil at one point.//
@46 //The men’s test was the same as the women’s 2nd test. The women’s 1st test (the nude one) had no parallel for the men.//
@anthony Pero (#45)
I think you might have misunderstood. The point that Austin was trying to make is that Robert Jordan quite possibly having a nudity kick isn’t something to make a fuss about.
And I’ve got to tell you man, so far you seem to be the one making the fuss here. Which is fine if you think it’s worth making a fuss about, but you seemed to indicate that it wasn’t, so I just wanted to make sure you aware of it. Because being aware of one’s own actions (and words, which are also a form of action) can be really hard at times, at which times we need other people to point those things out for us.
I forgot about Nynaeve channeling a second portal into existence. I also forgot the stuff about Verin, which isn’t surprising, given that she was for me one of a bunch of minor Aes Sedai whose doings were hard to track for much of the series.
//Of course, that really burned me when we found out Verin’s true nature in ToM. It’s interesting, too, that we end up discussing Verin in a chapter about the Accepted test, given that we also find out in that scene that she’s the master of twisting oaths, even against the Dark One and the Forsaken, who think they have *everything* figured out.//
@30 –
Sure, those things have existed in both real life and fiction long before Jordan. But Jordan’s choice to include them for women only when considered with his other proclivities when it comes to depictions of female nudity are certainly indicative of a fetishistic tendency in that regard. Especially when we add in his frequent allusions to female homosexuality while ignoring its male counterpart, or the polygamous marriages of the Aiel with no corresponding polyandrous arrangements either in Aiel culture or elsewhere. By itself the bathing scenes are unimportant, but in the context of the entire series they are definitely the first appearance of Jordan’s fondness for writing female nudity into his story even in places where it doesn’t really serve a narrative purpose.
@Olethros (#51)
First off, that post contains a spoiler in mentioning the //cultural practices of the Aiel//, as we haven’t even come across //any Aiel yet.// Well, apart from //Rand//, obviously, but he doesn’t count for obvious reasons. Please consider whiting out that sentence.
Secondly, regarding (whited out quote below)
what about //the Green Ajah, some of whom marry multiple Warders, and a majority of whom have sexual relationships with multiple Warders//?
@43 and others: // We find out in the Companion that the oaths and oath rod were Ishy’ s idea, right?//
I’m really annoyed that people think it was RJs fetish. Maybe the men are less naked (not sure, most situations where women are naked, men are too. And other times, too), but characters being naked is just about always with a reason. People bathe and sauna naked (although I heard in the States people sauna with towels wrapped around them, LOL). Beating someone with clothes on hurts less. Ga’shain can’t wear normal clothes. Aes Sedai are obsessed with gender. I feel RJ had fewer hangups than most people today with nakedness, so he sometimes set scenes in situations where people are naked (to be more real, for symbolism, to show how naive and inexperienced characters are, and maybe for fanservice). To paraphrase Dee Snider: “I can say that the fetishism in this series is mostly in the mind of the readers.”
Also, I’m not a fan of always gushing how excellent something is, when it’s not. Don’t get me wrong, this is entertaining, Sylas guesses right quite often, it’s more than ok. But this superficial amazement over any little thing is a very annoying US-American custom. Or maybe a non German custom, not sure.
The “Servants of All” part is a remnant of the AoL. Sure, the White Tower has a role of connection, looking at the bigger picture, facilitating communication and mediating between other entities. And that is important, but it is far from serving all. That the White Tower governs territory and is a constitutional oligarchy (so not pluralistic) is also problematic. So, it’s no wonder to me that their initiation rituals are highly geared towards initiates rejecting everything else (instead of affirming that their allegiance is to the Tower first). The Rings are to show the initiand rejects anything their life could have been. The Tower, right or wrong.
That is also one of the reason for me thinking //Egwene is a self-centered, willfully ignorant person. What use is the tower (which wasn’t the bees knees in normal times) if creation is destroyed?//
The Oaths are highly subjective. The Aes Sedai is bound to what she believes to be a lie, a weapon. So this discussion about better phrasing or what constitutes a weapon are kinda pointless, I think. But to the last one, @@@@@25. KalvinKingsley : Of course the mirror of mists is no weapon. Otherwise every assault would be assault with a deadly weapon. And if Moiraine would think it a weapon in one of your cases, she wouldn’t have been able to use it. Granted, she might not have thought about it, but then the deed would’ve been done and the oaths go against doing something, not having done something. //When Meidani chokes, oaths pertaining to what she is doing right then are conflicting.//
@53
Not quite. //The Companion under the Black Ajah entry says that Ishamael devised the three Black Oaths, and forced the Black Ajah to forswear the the Three Oaths and replace them with the Black Oaths. But the Aes Sedai were already swearing at least one Oath on the Oath Rod up to 500 years before the Trolloc Wars, so that part wasn’t him (see also “Three Oaths” and “Oath Rod”).//
@54 One is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times and the author has a thing.
ETA: Burbling at Sylas helps Tor.com know that this series is popular so they keep it going. It also encourages Sylas to keep going since reading the whole series in this level of detail is a massive undertaking.
@56 – Exactly. And again, I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that or that it bothers me. I was just noting that this chapter marks the first instance of a major female character getting naked “on screen.” (I know there was the whole Shienaran baths but that stuff was also mentioned later and wasn’t shown “on screen,” so to speak.) I noted it in my initial comment because it becomes a prominent “thing” in the rest of the series (and I think it’s only a really small, immaterial spoiler to say that).
And I’ve always read WoT to be somewhat PG rated, despite the violence and frequent nudity. So it’s not like it strays into George RR Martin territory. Characters get naked but RJ never really describes their bodies or anything like that. I think the most he did, and is really mild, is to note that //Aviendha// is surprisingly pale in the areas the sun doesn’t reach. That was paraphrased, of course. But other than that, I don’t recall him remarking on any physical aspect of the character. So it’s all very tame.
This may be my last post. I do not know how to white-out. I thought those slashes before and after did it. so I will just comment in my own head. Have fun y’all.
@58: When making a comment to post, you can highlight/select a part of the text with a cursor or finger, click the text color dropdown (the arrow beside the underlined non-highlighted A) above the postbox, and turn it white. The slashes just show readers where the whited-out text begins and ends.
@58, Seconding what Aerona said. If I can do it anybody can do it. // Really.//
@39: I usually feel that kind of rage toward characters when I envy them and don’t find them dangerous.
@Sebastian (#54)
We meet again! **Evil, yet slightly nervous laugh**
At any rate: //Egwene, at the end of the series, is in every fibre of her being Aes Sedai. Of course, she is also in every fibre of her being Aiel, which is what makes her such an interesting, strong and overall amazing Character. But anyway…. placing an incredible amount of importance on the Tower is what Aes Sedai do; thus Egwene, who has spent about 6,5 books completely immersing herself in Aes Sedai Culture at that point, does the same thing. Whether being Aes Sedai necessarily also involves being self-centred and wilfully ignorant, that is for each reader to decide individually for themselves.
Although, it has to be said that I think that the Aes Sedai placing a great amount of importance on the survival of their own organization can only be respected. Then again, you don’t seem to really value survival (and living, which is distinct from survival) all that much. In fact, from what you wrote about Egwene it seems as if you think that, generally speaking, valuing one’s own survival (or the survival of the organization one belongs to) is more selfish than to make a “noble sacrifice”. If so, then I will tell you now: NO, IT ISN’T. And that is one thing on which we are NOT able to “agree to disagree”. There are a few exceptions, but by and large, not caring about one’s own survival — or even only caring about surviving, and not about living — is SIGNIFICANTLY more selfish than whatever reason one might have for pursuing a life whose only goal is death (whether metaphorically, or literally). And again: this is not up for debate. It is an undeniable FACT. I’m sorry, but it simply is.
On the other hand, though, another point that’s relevant here is that I have always found it to be a rather huge fallacy to only consider what happens in the event of failure. That’s also yet another part of my disagreement with you on Lan from last week, I guess. You correctly point out that the Tower won’t be of much importance if the world as we know it ceases to exist. But you’ve failed to answer the equivalent question from the opposite side, the question that Egwene at the end of the series IS asking: suppose Tarmon Gai’don is won, but the White Tower ceases to exist in the process. How devastating would that be for the world going into the Fourth Age? Egwene’s answer is “extremely devastating”, and personally I happen to think she has a point. But I would love to read your answer to that question.//
@54 Sebastian
If you consider the breaking of Galina Casban and Semirhage and still dont think that RJ had “a thing” for enforced nudity and corporal punishment, I guess you wont be convinced. But I think it is glaringly obvious.
Also as a fellow german: Yes americans (and a lot of other people for that matter) are – on average – more enthusiastic about praise than germans. This however is an american site and while you wont change american culture by complaining about it, doing so will make you look grumpy and bad mannered.
@@@@@56. noblehunter : The thing about tor.com might be right, but judging by the activity of the mods, TOR knows what we write, and doesn’t has to go by skimming the posts. But don’t you think that Sylas will like real compliments, instead of just the ever same gushing? It cheapens every real compliment, makes honest critiques seem mean, and in the case that one has to give a scolding (I’m thinking about the work place here, for example) the scoldee will feel attacked. But it’s nothing that needs to have a real discussion about, here.
@@@@@62. jadis666 : I still don’t see how Lan aims to die, and //Egwene doesn’t need to make a heroic sacrifice, she only needs to realize that what she chose as her priorities aren’t the most important ones. And that she isn’t the queen of the world. The exact thing she always wanted to bully Rand away from (and what was his least problem) is her biggest problem. When she calls Rand responsible for Aes Sedai being bonded by Asha’man (being bonded against their will seems to be secondary), and Nynaeve asks if she is just as responsible for Aes Sedai capturing him and torturing him, her annoyance is sooo thick. When she reflects that she had to approve her own wedding her thoughts drip of self-importance, what is she to do as the most important person in the world, she has to decide if people may marry.// I’ll stop, not the place to dredge up my same old arguments.
What is the White Tower needed for after Tarmon Gaidon? Keeping the Seanchan in check? Presumably Mat and Hawkwind do most of that. And there is the Dragons Peace, too. Making the nations be nice to each other? Dragons Peace. Cleaning up the last Shadowspawn? With their usual competence I see black for that. Freeing the Damane? LOL, as if they were capable of that. And even if there wasn’t the Dragons Peace, they wouldn’t be very effective, they have shown that over the 3000 last years. That there is a point to be made that the White Tower can be a good thing doesn’t change the fact that they’re far from the best. And why do they need to be the center of creation to survive Tarmon Gaidon? All the other entities don’t act this way, except Rand, but keep on existing, even broadening their portfolios. And even more, the White Tower will be incredibly weak. Other than the losses in the last battle, Elaida seriously mismanaged their fiefdom, and with the last battle approaching they couldn’t work on that.
@@@@@63. Kah-thurak : I do think that he liked to have fan service in his books, that he tried to give other genders fan service, too, that he preferred to have women mostly mind raped and and men bodily harmed, along with mind rape. I don’t think it was necessarily a fetish of his, and I don’t think the conclusion that it was obtrudes in the series.
Yeah, like I said above in this post, that is one of the bad things about this custom, honest critique seems mean. And I realize that I can’t change the world, but I still think I can write about it if I’m struck by it.
By the way, nice name, and nice flower you have there. I DMed the Borbarad campaign, and took over many things from WoT. My sixth marked one was a nivesan shaman, so I took a lot from Wolf Brothers. I took the Dragonsworn and turned them into people who work for the cause of the marked ones, without regard for nationality or culture. And a lot of smaller things. :-)
I don’t know where this bold markup comes from, can’t change it, it seems. Sorry.
Argh, I forgot to whiteout. Could the wonderful mods spoiler my third paragraph? And in the preview the last two paragraphs were bold, now they aren’t :-)
jadis666@49:
We appear to be having another one of those language barriers that keep occurring between us, and for the most part keeps me from reading your posts, unless you specifically reference me. When I used the word “fuss”, I’m not referring to people “making a fuss” about nudity in The Wheel of Time. I’m using the word “fuss” to indicate that I have a negative opinion towards this exact quote:
I’m taking exception to the use of the term “nudity kick,” as if the nudity in The Wheel of Time were somehow “out of place” and that it indicated something strange, or different about the author that he chose to add it in. When in fact, the use of ritual nudity is just adding a level of realism to the story, which is the opposite of a “nudity kick”, because there is tons of historical precedence. It also exists for character and story reasons, to help illustrate how out-of-their-comfort-zones our main characters are. Its not simply a matter of Robert Jordan inserting nudity to be titillating, as indicated by the comment @5.
@62 jadis666
Although I happen to agree with your one point about whether not wanting to live is more selfish than the alternative, you do not get to say “this is not up for debate. It is an undeniable FACT. I’m sorry, but it simply is.” Everything on topic is up for debate, and this is clearly a matter of opinion and not historical or scientific fact. You are stifling discussion when you adopt a tone and words that say that you are certain you are right and that any other opinion must be wrong. See the Moderation Policy #7.
Don’t be a boor. Don’t be a bore either. After reading many of your posts for the last few months, I am almost at the point of skipping them because of your attitude.
Sebastian@64:
Keeping the Black Tower in check, more likely. And other female Channelers. An organization of Channelers in peacetime primarily exists to keep other channelers in check, because governments don’t have the resources to stop them.//
Maybe your definition of what constitutes a “real compliment” isn’t in line with the people making the compliments. It’s probably a cultural thing, but that statement comes across pretty self-absorbed. Even though I agree with you, lol.
Note: message edited by moderator to white out potential spoiler.
AP@68 – gentle reminder – you will need to white out stuff you quote and respond to from Sebastian’s post – as it is as spoileriffic as things get round here.
lmosiman @26:
And actually, to anyone who knows how the Oaths work, the very fact that she was able to do it would constitute proof that her belief was sincere! // (Assuming she could convince them she’s covered by the Oaths and not Black Ajah, of course.) //
@69:
Good catch, thanks!
MODS:
@64 still needs to have the 3rd and 4th paragraphs whited out for spoilers.
Ah Fetishes!
Kicks! (Be they nudity or otherwise).
FACTS!!!!!
Fan service & Fan generated nicknames.
COMMENTS section has been lively this week.
Sylas, I enjoyed reading your post this week especially (hopefully my subjective reaction won’t be viewed by ‘Ze Germans’ among us as facetiously ritualistic & lacking in real value).
It could have been because you had a particularly rich vein to mine in the chapter you covered. But that wasn’t it.
It could have been because the empathy in your analysis was particularly sharp, but that wasn’t it either.
It was really just one word… And the eerily prescient context in which you used it that gave me great delight!
‘Ferreting…’
Heh.
Loved it!
—————————————————-
If I could please note one last thing to those LEAPING to Jordan’s defense regarding kicks & fetishes. The observable evidence is quite clear. His writing has them. In style & substance. I really enjoyed the former because of the lyrical rhythm. The latter was a choice that is really only relevant in analysis because, in my opinion it wasn’t so brazen as to detract from the story’s worth or distract from the flow of the plot.
However, I don’t think it is defensible as a necessary inclusion to somehow add to the authenticity of the work. It is a choice, one whose anachronistic tendencies Jordan emphasizes ‘in story’ later on. It seems to me that he did it because he could. And he was a creative enough writer that it didn’t appear as needlessly gratuitous when he flashed that particular fetish, as it might have in the hands of a lesser writer.
What I look forward to in the tv-series is to finally see a woman “kicking ass” while nude instead of just being nude in a gratuitous way.
I think it’s one of the most empowering scenes for women in both books and film/tv.
73. Gregor Lewis +10 for the ‘Snatch’ reference…
@74…. Hmm… I can’t remember your reference… must be \\Avienda grabbing her spear from bed and stabbing something.\\ The whole nudity thing is a real issue for the TV show… what will they decide to do? It could be emphasized or de-emphasized. It will have to be sorted out before they make the first episode. They will likely have to decide on the rating system from the beginning… you can’t go changing from TV-14 to TV-MA… mid-season or episode to episode… The other area of common non-sexual partial nudity was \\the super girls exploring and hunting in the world of dreams… lots of wardrobe malfunctions occur there. Perrin was there often. He might show up as a giant shaggy wolf but he was never nude. Maybe he will be in the TV show\\… often funny and revealing of character…HA! Jordan is providing a bit of fan service and bit of feelings of discomfort and vulnerability that most of us would experience under the circumstance. He thought he knew his target audience. I bet he was surprised by the number of women that read his giant series. Thirty years ago fantasy was rather male centric with mostly male writers. That sure has changed and for the better… I don’t have any data on how his writing changed as the series went on… but he added some alternative viewpoints later in the series that were completely absent in the first half of it. Personally I hate the euphemism Jordan uses. \\“pillow friends”… why didn’t he just say they were “lovers” instead?\\
I think many of you are making far too much of the nudity in WoT. It happened occasionally but was far from “all the time.” And it’s *way* less nudity and certainly less sex than A Song of Ice and Fire, for example. It just perhaps raised more eyebrows at the time because people initially thought they were just reading the “American Tolkien.”
As for TV, in the day of Game of Thrones, most people won’t bat an eyelash at much of the nudity here, given how much “sexposition” and what Malcolm Tucker might call “violent sexual imagery” appeared on the HBO show. And the showrunners might very well remove some of it. What will still definitely be an issue is the //occasional non-consensual incident, such as: Moghedien, Mesaana, and Graendal with Shaidar Haran, and of course Tylin and Mat.//
77: Doesn’t most of the stuff you mentioned happened ofscreen, (except the imho most problematic scene Mat and the Queen…)?
For the filmmakers the questions will be do we loose somethink if we don’t have the nudity, and some of the scenes can have the caracters nude but don’t show much, so there is that choice.
Personally I would drop a lot of nudity because doesn’t add that much and reduces potential fans.
Fetishwise I find Jordan pretty tame and a bit better represantation of not straight relationship is somethink I would exspect.
@77 – It was far more than occasional, if you really stop to think about it. Just about any type of ritual involved women stripping down. For instance, wasn’t //Aviendha and Elayne’s bonding//done in the nude? Seriously, he had the women stripping for just about everything.
//okay, let me try this// Cool, thanks for the info @59 Aerona Greenjoy and @60 princessroxana!
@@@@@68. Anthony Pero : The Aes Sedai are a government. //Also, I don’t know if the mistrusted, self-centered, ineffective group of channelers who didn’t do a great job for three thousand years is the right one to keep the others in check. For the Amayyad goes the same as for the Seanchan, I highly doubt they even can keep them in check. The three other female Randland organizations did a way better job for as long as they existed, without checking by the Aes Sedai. And the Asha’man… Well, first of all I think they would have as much difficulty keeping them in check as with the Seanchan and Amayyads, just too many of them. Logain is probably addicted to heroism now, and THE defining, identity generating event for the Black Tower was their internal struggle against the Shadow. I don’t know if they really need being controlled. I feel what all organisations, magical or political, need with the Dragons Peace is cooperation and mutual understanding. Not a specialist subject of Aes Sedai//
To qualify my view about RJs “fetishes”: In the same vein, Martin would have a fetish for rape and dismemberment, Sanderson would be said to represent the opinion that civilization needs to be washed away in apocalyptic fashion, Lynch to endorse white collar crime and so on. Add to that that I think it’s mostly narratively used, and the rest is fan service, of which other genders get quite a bit, too. No need to see it as defining for the series or RJ.
@@@@@77. fernandan : I don’t know, that would depend on the choice you mention. //Shaidar Haran mistreating the 3 Forsaken is meant as a horrific punishment, would be ok if they go the mature way. And while I realized later that Tylin and Mat is not ok, it felt to me like crude social pressure instead of sexual (i.e. he wouldn’t have wanted anything because he just didn’t see her as a potential partner, but in the medium run he was very much for the relationship). WoT is in a weird place rating wise, with honour, propriety and goodness of characters on the one hand, and RJ wanting to show human abysses, like horrible violence, mental illness and bad relationships (by which I also think of Rand/Egwene for example).//
@@@@@76. 19ridolf67 : Of the top of my head //Melindhra trying to kill Mat, Maidens at Imre Stand, Cold Rocks Hold, Taien, and a lot of places, Moiraine in the Mountains of Mist (in a thin robe, IIRC), Nynaeve in the first part of the test for Accepted, Nynaeve in the test for Aes Sedai, Nynaeve against Moghedien in Tel’aran’rhiod, Aviendha in Taien/Seanchan (kinda), Elayne in the Nightmare in Tar Valon, the original Power Girls when they’re taken by bandits.//
@anthony Pero (#66)
No, I don’t think this specific case is a language barrier.
Rather:
My point, and the point of others, is that a nudity kick isn’t all that strange for an author to have, nor that scenes which are indicative of an author indulging in said kick are in any way “out of place”. All authors have certain quirks to their writing, both in style and in certain proclivities for elements of substance, and when those quirks are of a sexual nature we call them “kinks”. There is no real difference of note between kinks and other quirks, other part of it that is the Semantics obviously, as the Set of kinks is just a proper subset of the Set of quirks.
To focus on the other part of what you wrote for a second:
Yes, it’s indicative of something different about the author. That’s what a quirk is. Now, the real question is this: why would quirks that deal with more sexual subject matter inherently say something bad about the author? Even more so, you seem to indicate there that anything that’s different about an author is automatically strange and “our of place”. In other words: that all quirks are bad. Why in the world would you think that?
Or isn’t that what you meant? And if it isn’t, why take issue with a remark that’s nothing more than someone noting a quirk of the author, and poking good-natured fun at said quirk? There is, after all, little point in rushing to someone’s defence when they aren’t actually being attacked.
That’s the best summary I can give of my point here, actually. You read the word “kink”, and thought this was an attack on Robert Jordan, so you rushed to his defence. The problem is that it actually wasn’t an attack, just a somewhat tongue-in-cheek observation. And rushing to somebody’s defence when that someone is not actually being attacked is completely pointless, and usually makes you come across as kind of a dick, despite all your best intentions. //I mean, just ask any of the Supergirls (I count them as 5, as opposed to 3 as it’s usually done) about the chivalrous attitudes of the Ta’veren boys, and they would explain to you exactly what I meant by that. 8=D//
@anon (#67)
I completely understand where you’re coming from, and on virtually any other case I’d agree with you.
But I have seen too much of the devastation that suicide can cause. I have seen too much of the devastation that is caused by merely surviving, but refusing to live. I have seen too much of the devastation that Institutions and other organizations falling can cause. The people who give up on life in any of these ways, or the people that worked in and with such organizations, often don’t realize the impact they have on those around them, and the havoc they leave in their wake when they depart — whether that be a physical departure, and dying is a physical departure too; or a departure in spirit alone. Those would mostly be the ones who argue for the opposite case, of course. They also invariably think that those around them would be better off without them, when the opposite is always true. Sometimes a side-effect of a sacrifice can make the pain of those that are left behind worth it, but there are no instances where the pain isn’t there. Heck, even the most monstrous of people tend to be missed on some level, and those aren’t usually the ones that are willing to sacrifice their own lives….
I already mentioned that there are exceptions, and we can debate on what exactly those exceptions are. But when it comes to the aggregate case: no, there can’t be any debate. Giving up on life, whether it be actually seeking death or “merely” giving up on actually living your life, is (again, only generally speaking here) far more selfish than embracing life is. The trails of blood, tears and anguish are too great and too obvious for there to be any debate; and also, the people who argue the opposite case are too often the trailblazers themselves, or if not yet will too often eventually turn into the trailblazers themselves, for there to be any debate.
I’m terribly sorry, but the facts are simply too overwhelming, and too severe, for a debate to be possible where both sides have equal measure.
As for Moderation Policy #7: again, I understand your worry.
But when I think hard about it and am perfectly honest with myself, and also honest about how I’d expect others to be: I can’t conclude anything other than that there are only 2, mutually exclusive options.
Either topics as heavy, emotional and soul-cutting as suicide and mental states that cause suicide or related problems aren’t discussed in these fora (which would be a shame, as The Wheel of Time has quite a few opportunities to discuss topics of such a nature, and we would be heavily impaired as a community if we would force ourselves to stay away from them); or you should expect things to get heated.
Myself, I’d opt for the latter; and that means that, while Policy 7 certainly shouldn’t be abandoned in any way, maybe we can ask the Moderators to apply it in such a way that it can be a little more lenient if the topic being discussed calls for that?
Of course, I’d want my post to be read by as much people as possible. But if my style of writing makes you uncomfortably, I wouldn’t blame you at all if, at some point, you just decided to skip them. That’s the way things go sometimes.
@19ridolf67 (#76)
Can you recall an instance where Jordan referred to //a heterosexual couple// in such blatant a term as //“lover”// is? It could of course be that I have forgotten the countless times that indeed exist, and I hope you tell me about them if that’s the case, but personally I can’t remember any at all. To me, it always appeared that //anything to do with sex was referred to in the most circumspect of terms. It’s just that, for the heterosexual cases, we are familiar enough with them from other writings that we recognize them instantly. Although, of course, not always. For example, I never realized that Myrelle had forced Lan into sex the first time I read the series; and I seriously low-balled the severity of the lack of consent on Mat’s part in his “games” (**ahem**) with Tylin. Only after people on the Web pointed these things out to me did I realize them. And all of that is, I think, due to Jordan’s insistence on using euphemisms (often self-invented ones, too) for literally anything that is even remotely sexual in nature; or even romantic in nature, for that matter. I mean, does the word “romantic” itself even appear in any of the 15 books?//
Also @19. AeronaGreenjoy
While all this is true, I think Aginor here is also a stand-in for Moiraine. He is a powerful channeler who has thrown her life into chaos. The lightning bolts she throws at him are symbolic of her desired come-uppance against Moiraine.
I agree with all of this, but I think there’s another level underlying it all, and that level is Lan.
Back in TEOTW she had a choice – return to Emond’s Field to keep her flock, so to speak, or escort the four youngsters in the outside world, in a situation where she could not possibly expect to make much of a difference. Oh, and if she goes with them, she gets to hang around this totally hot warder who has suddenly started to notice her (starting from the point where she tracked them down after Aridhol). Even after she leaves the boys at the start of TGH, she does not go back to her duty – she goes with Egwene, to the Tower, where she also could not possibly expect to make much of a difference. But coincidentally, it will make her Aes Sedai, which means Lan will look at her in a whole new way. Oh, and the additional motivation she *does* admit is that she wants revenge against Moiraine – who coincidentally is the person keeping her from having Lan.
Nynaeve’s spite towards Moiraine is because Moiraine is standing in her way.
Nynaeve’s guilt about Emond’s field is because she is uncertain how far her abandonment of them was motivated by her unacknowledged desire to spend time with Lan.
@10. tbgh
13. Silvertip
My understanding is that the test passes those who want to be Aes Sedai more than anything else in their life. In Nynaeve’s case, her temptations were: Getting revenge on the powerful, protecting her people, life with Lan. The Tower wants those whose first loyalty will be to the Tower. The more the novices have their memories intact, the more they will doubt that this world is real, and the less effective the test will be.
Incidentally, my guess is that this Ter’angreal originally functioned as a substitute for an execution chamber, for a nation who was no longer willing to execute condemned criminals. Just send them into T’A’R to a world of their choosing, where they will be happy, and they will be gone from ours.
@32. Anthony Pero
Ha!
Incidentally, I remember reading a fan-fic page of a certain blue-eyed blonde novice’s visit to the Acceptatron. Apparently, she was admiring herself in the mirror when she spotted a rapidly-growing pimple. Her efforts to expunge it grew more and more frantic, until The Way Back Will Come But Once, and she tore herself away from what she loved most, to be washed clean, etc. etc.
Perhaps someone can find it again? I was never able to.
@63. Kah-thurak
I must not PLOD. The PLOD is the mind-killer. The PLOD is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
@@@@@85. jadis666 : “Lover” comes up at least twice, once when// Nynaeve gives a mental catch up to Elaynes and Thoms situation, in Salidar IIRC. And Caraline asks Min if she is his lover.// “Lover” was a less respectful term in the series, as such it didn’t come up often. Jordan used “sweetheart” or “husband/wife” for what we would use “lover.”
And I guess “pillowfriend” was a case of Aes Sedai seeing Novices and Accepted as children, so they use a cutesy term.
jadis666 @85, Sebastian @87: Per IdealSeek (http://dposey.no-ip.com/IdealSeek/, an interesting website that lets you search books 1–12 for text), there are 53 occurrences of “lover” among the books RJ wrote. That includes “The spear is your lover” in the Glossaries of all of the books through LoC, for a total of 47 “in-text” uses of the word.
Since IdealSeek is not perfect, I went through and looked at the books individually via Kindle, and here’s what I got (counting both “lover” and “lovers”):
Ravens: 0
TEotW: 1 (Glossary only)
TGH: 4 (1 in Glossary)
TDR: 4 (2 in Glossary)
TSR: 7 (1 in Glossary)
TFoH: 13 (1 in Glossary)
LoC: 8 (1 in Glossary)
ACoS: 10
TPoD: 2
WH: 7
CoT: 7
NS: 2
KoD: 4
That’s a total of 69 occurrences, 62 of which occur “in-text.” For completeness, in BWS’s books, the counts are
TGS: 2
ToM: 5
AMoL: 3
So, what we have learned (or maybe just me…HA) is that
\\“Pillow friends”\\ (I hope I don’t have to repeat that) only refers to the women of the White tower… the Q&A on twitter a month ago was all a twitter about it. This in regard to the WOT-TV maybe embracing this particular story element. My memory says they were temporary relationships. Not sure they will play it that way for the show… No negativity is implied by this post… I just don’t like the term….
Thanks for digging @87 and @88… I was thinking it was something\\
Birgitte says about Gaidal…. that they were lovers but not always married… I was trying to find that in one of Birgitte’s conversations\\
… but got sucked into Leigh’s Re-read involving a certain paradigm shift in CoS- BOOM. And now I want to re-read the whole series again…
@89 I’m pretty sure that conversation is in book 5.. Sylas sucked me into a re-read, and I think that is where you should look for that :)
@85 in regard to your question, I know of at least one specific incident – I just read it in FoH :) //Elayne most definitely tells Nynaeve that Thom and Morgase were lovers (after her father died)//
@@@@@88. bad_platypus : Neat. I knew about the site, but didn’t think to look it up. I looked up sweethearts, and that was when I found that the search is absolute, so variation need to be searched for separately. No “sweetheart”, but 4 “sweethearts” (Less than I thought, I was remembering //Rand going to the farm after meeting Verin and Alanna//, and that is indeed one of the instances). There’re 18 instances of “lovers.” It seems RJ used lover way more than I thought.
To the original question, I get the feeling that lovers was used for people having sex (either in the act, or when it was a real relationship that didn’t end in marriage). Pillowfriends are often said to be for consolation and emotional intimacy, maybe not all pillowfriendships were sexual. Then it would make sense not to use a term that is used for sexual relationships. Or it’s the cutesy term for children I mentioned earlier. Or something else entirely :-D
It’s certainly something that should be thought about for the show. I’m fine with it either way, myself, but then I’m a fair skinned, heterosexual, european man, I don’t have real cause to miss representation.
@@@@@89. 19ridolf67 : I got driven by Sylas to reread, but since my last complete reread ended just 3 months ago, I started with my favourite book, TSR. I’m just a few chapters past //Rands first bonding, mentioned above, which is why I remembered it.// I know your pain, but it takes me just a few months to reread the series, with just a little jumping over sequences I don’t like that much. Ebook readers on the phone are great, even just quickly going to the toilet is at least half a page for me :-)
Arg, Mods, can you be heroes again? I put the // but forgot the text color.
@89: I thought ///Ailil and Shalon, who are not Aes Sedai, were said tohave become “pillow friends” in Winter’s Heart./// But I couldn’t confirm that on the IdealSeek search, and I’m not on Twitter.
Apologies if this was mentioned, but I didn’t read every comment closely for this post. There were a lot.
Jordan used nudity in woman’s rituals for a specific reason: men broke the world. So, there were times when you needed to prove you were a woman in order to join the group, such as the Accepted test. Only women get to do it. Strip down and prove you are a woman. We will see other examples later, but the reasoning is the same. Only women need apply.
AeronaGreenjoy @94: You remember correctly, but it’s an Aes Sedai who’s talking about it to another Aes Sedai, so she uses the common Aes Sedai term. I don’t recall any instance of a non-Aes Sedai using the term.